Gib deal puts focus on pragmatism and people over ‘ideological hobbyhorses’, Lords told

The political agreement on Gibraltar, coupled to the wider UK/EU reset, demonstrates what can be achieved by putting pragmatism and people over “ideological hobbyhorses”, a Foreign Office minister told the House of Lords this week.

Labour peer Baroness Chapman of Darlington, a Minister of State in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, was responding to questions on the agreement announced last week by the UK, EU, Spain and Gibraltar.

She said the deal and ensuing treaty would guarantee border fluidity vital to Gibraltar and its neighbouring communities, while safeguarding the Rock’s British sovereignty and the autonomy of its UK military base.

And she reflected too on the wider context in which the Gibraltar agreement had been reached.

“There is now a reset of the EU relationship, which shows what can be achieved with patience and pragmatism and when there is a focus on the people rather than, perhaps, some of our ideological hobbyhorses,” Baroness Chapman said.

“That is the approach that this Government have taken to this [Gibraltar] issue and will take to all issues regarding our relationship with the EU.”

“It is important that we restore our relationships, that we co-operate on things such as security, that we get our SPS [sanitary and phytosanitary] agreement sorted out and that we can work together on the challenges we face, such as illegal migration, climate change and the challenges to our economies.”

“These are all things that we need to address together in that spirit of openness and pragmatism.”

“That is far more profitable for the people of this country as well.”

During the debate, Baroness Chapman was quizzed on aspects of the treaty including Schengen checks and mechanisms for dispute resolution.

And she was asked too whether the treaty would factor in past experiences with Spain over Gibraltar, particularly in respect of how Schengen controls would be applied in the event of a change of government in Spain.

Liberal Democrat peer Lord Purvis welcomed the agreement, noting that most Gibraltarians had voted to remain in the EU in the 2016 Brexit referendum and that “a workable and sensible arrangement” was in Gibraltar’s interest and that of the neighbouring region.

But Lord Purvis cautioned too about Spain’s past willingness to “act unilaterally over Gibraltar, to the detriment not only of Gibraltarians but of their own residents.”

He asked what mechanisms would be in the agreement to ensure compliance, how this would be policed and what the mechanisms would be for dispute resolution.

That sentiment was echoed by Ulster Unionist Party peer Lord Empey.

“We have not seen the detail, but I want to know what would happen if there were a different Government - for instance in Spain - who might take a different attitude,” Lord Empey asked.

“Is there something there to protect the situation? Is there some arbitration?”

“Once people get their foot in the door the bureaucracy can be more difficult: they can refuse this, that and the other, and quite a bit of nastiness could develop at the point of entry.”

Baroness Chapman said the treaty would contain mechanisms for arbitration and dispute resolution, as well as an exit clause should it be necessary.

“He is right to say that there is the possibility, with a change of Government here or in Spain, or even in Gibraltar, that different approaches may be favoured in the future,” she said.

“As we would always expect in this type of deal, there will be some dispute mechanisms.”

“Ultimately, although I genuinely do not expect this to happen, and I hope for the sake of the people of Gibraltar that this never happens, there is the possibility for either party [meaning the UK or the EU] unilaterally to end the agreement.”

“However, we do not anticipate that happening.”

“This is a good outcome for the people of Gibraltar.”

Baroness Chapman confirmed that non-resident British nationals arriving in Gibraltar once the treaty was in place would have to undergo Schengen checks and would trigger their 90 in 180-day limit during visits to the Rock.

She said the Schengen checks would be similar to those at St Pancras, where French immigrations officers clear travellers in the UK before they board trains to France.

But she said that unless an alert was triggered on the Schengen Information System, “there should be no issues”.

“If an alert is triggered by that Schengen check, you will not be instantly lifted by Spanish police and taken to Malaga for interrogation,” she said.

“You will maintain your rights and have access to legal advice, as well as the option of returning to your departure airport if that is what you want to do.”

“That is an agreement that Gibraltar is happy with. It is a good compromise and something that will serve the people of Gibraltar well.”

Conservative peer Baroness Foster of Oxton challenged the minister on the comparison with checks at St Pancras, saying these were not comparable to what was envisaged in the Gibraltar treaty.

“My concern, which we need clarification on, is that I read that a Spanish immigration officer or police officer - whatever you want to call them - will check the British passports of British passport holders and can refuse entry to that British citizen going into a British sovereign territory,” she said.

“That is the difference: we have a Spanish officer refusing a British citizen going into a British Overseas Territory.”
Baroness Chapman acknowledged the concerns but said they were unfounded.

“We simply differ in our view with regard to sovereignty with our friends and allies in Spain,” she replied.

“Nothing in this agreement changes the status of the sovereignty of Gibraltar - we are very clear about that.”

“Spain understands that, and that is reflected in the treaty.”

“It was really important that we made sure that that was the case, because we do not want any questions about Gibraltarian sovereignty to arise out of this.”

As for the comparison with St Pancras, she said “of course this is different”.

"The point is that it is not a full immigration process,” she said.

“This is about a Schengen check, so it is an alert about whether an outstanding warrant or criminality issue would be triggered.”

“You would not immediately lose all your rights, be arrested or anything like that.”

“You would have the option of going and answering the questions that may arise as a result of that trigger, or of taking legal advice and/or returning to your country of departure.”

“This is a compromise, I accept that. It is very unusual, but this is an unusual circumstance.”

“This is necessary to make sure that border stays open.”

“That was the whole point of what we were trying to negotiate and what we have been trying to achieve. That is what has been achieved.”

Baroness said there was shared consensus in the UK Parliament that the people of Gibraltar were “front and centre of all of this” and

Gibraltarians had been directly involved throughout the negotiation, under both Conservative and Labour governments, she told peers.

“They are very warmly in support of it,” Baroness Chapman added, adding the political agreement had been “reasonably well-received" even on the opposition bench in the House of Commons.

“I will listen to them, and if it gets to the point where they are no longer of that view then, clearly, we would have to think again.”

“They have been involved every step of the way.”

“We have done nothing about them without them - we would not do that - and they are pleased with this agreement.”

“It will make such a difference to their daily lives, their prosperity and the way they are able to live and to travel backwards and forwards.”

“The 15,000 people crossing that border every day can do so freely, without any concerns about the border being closed or any of that.”

“This is a big win for the Gibraltarians, and I welcome it.”

And quizzed about military autonomy and whether UK military personnel would be subject to Schengen controls, Baroness Chapman was clear in her response.

“I am happy to make clear that service personnel at the base are not going to need Schengen checks,” she told the Lords.